00:00:00 Alana Anzalone
I can't truly understand how someone's life is affected until I connect with them on a deeper level. All of us who are standing in front of a jury or opposing counsel is doing our client a disservice if they are not spending the time to truly connect with them in their life, to understand why they deserve what we're asking for.

00:00:19 Tracy Liberatore
That's Alana Anzalone, a personal injury trial lawyer and founder of Anzalone Law Offices in Colorado. She believes the strongest advocacy comes from truly understanding your client and having the confidence to represent them in a way that feels authentic to you.

00:00:35 Alana Anzalone
Don't get lost in being somebody else. You're in this field because you were drawn to it, and use your own authenticity to represent your clients in whatever way works for you.

00:00:45 Tracy Liberatore
In this episode, you will learn how deeper client connection strengthens trial advocacy, how to balance compassion with relentless courtroom advocacy, and why authenticity and working from your own values can make you a stronger, more sustainable trial lawyer.

00:01:02 Tracy Liberatore
Welcome to Statutes and Stethoscopes, the show for attorneys who know that winning a case is only part of the job, and that reading the medical record right matters just as much as what happens in the courtroom. In each episode, I sit down with trial attorneys, forensic pathologist, and expert witnesses who have lived the work of turning a chart into a case.

00:01:24 Tracy Liberatore
We move past the theory to examine how a record actually gets built, tested and defended because the chart never lies. I'm your host, Tracy Liberatore. Let's get into today's conversation. So, Alana, you said something that really struck me at one point. Without connection, it's impossible to truly advocate for your clients. Tell us what that means in practice. How does connection change the way you try a case?

00:01:49 Alana Anzalone
It all comes down to the fact that our role, what we're being hired for is to be the voice of somebody who life or their family, life has changed, in a significant way to them. And what our job is, is to understand that because what may affect someone's life in one way doesn't affect someone else.

00:02:16 Alana Anzalone
They may not find, they may not resonate with how, you know, your client's life has been affected. And I can't truly understand how someone's life is affected until I connect with them on a deeper level. And so all of us who are standing in front of a jury or opposing counsel or, an insurance company is doing our client a disservice if they are not spending the time to truly connect with them in their life, to understand why they deserve what we're asking for.

00:02:48 Alana Anzalone
So, I don't feel right standing up in front of somebody and saying my client deserves something without really knowing what they're gone through. So.

00:02:56 Tracy Liberatore
Right, right. And really being able to tell their story.

00:02:59 Alana Anzalone
Yeah, it's in the I need to do to be able to to confidently stand there and ask somebody for money for them.

00:03:05 Tracy Liberatore
You represent victims of someone else's wrongdoing. And when you sit across from an injured client, what matters most to you in that first meeting?

00:03:13 Alana Anzalone
Again, it gets back to connection, right? Like I want I want them to feel connected to me. And I also want to feel connected to them. I will call out if a connection doesn't exist. Right. If if if I'm not the right attorney for them or they don't believe I'm the right attorney for them, I'm not going to let my ego get in the way of that.

00:03:32 Alana Anzalone
They deserve the person that's going to properly represent them. However, I will say that my intakes aren't set in an hour. They're not set for 30 minutes. They get as much time with me as they want. Even if I'm not going to take a case, whether it's, you know, for whatever reason. And so when I'm sitting across from somebody who I've never met before with this situation that has changed their life, whether big or small, in someone else's eyes, it's big to them.

00:04:04 Alana Anzalone
And so, you know, everyone who's sitting in my office or these days on zoom across from me, is getting my, you know, 100% preferred attention on a human level. And I think that that's kind of one of my superpowers is that I really do try to connect with people on a human level, to really understand what, what their life challenges have been.

00:04:30 Tracy Liberatore
All right. We'll get back to the show in one second, but real quick. How many spreadsheets is your practice currently held together by? That's how I ran Med Legal Pro for years, across 50 plus experts and hundreds of active cases. And the part that worried me was the conflict. Checking a conflict you miss doesn't announce itself. It turns up months later when you're deep into a case file and the fix is expensive.

00:04:56 Tracy Liberatore
So I built ConflictPro. It runs a two level check before you take the case, and it keeps your experts, your case tracking, your billing and your e-signature. In one login. There's a free trial and no card is needed. So if that's a risk you'd rather stop carrying. Scan the QR code on the screen or click the link in the show notes.

00:05:16 Tracy Liberatore
And now back to the show. So if you're sitting across from somebody and they're very distraught and they're telling you this story of how, you know, wrong they were and whatnot, and I'm sure you have clients that, as you said, may not have a case. How do you tell them or go about explaining to them? You know, I'm sorry, but you just, you know, there's not something for us to we can't help you or what.

00:05:36 Alana Anzalone
I mean, for the most part, it's because the legal system doesn't support it, right? Like, it doesn't invalidate the experience they have or the injury they have, or the grief they're suffering because they lost somebody that exists. Right? You can't take that away from them. Unfortunately, if we can't prove a case, I'm not going to I'm not going to drag someone through the mud and put it.

00:06:00 Alana Anzalone
Litigation is stressful on clients. It just opens doors to grief continuously and to trauma. I mean, they've all experienced trauma. And and so I'm very transparent in the first phone call. And, you know, I basically say to them like, this isn't me telling you, I don't I don't think what you've been through is significant. It's just unfortunately, the law doesn't support, you know, successful outcome on this.

00:06:27 Tracy Liberatore
And what's your favorite case type to take?

00:06:31 Alana Anzalone
I medical malpractice and in women's health issues I feel very connected with, but mostly medical malpractice. I just feel that, you know, those clients have been through so much and also wrongful death. Okay.

00:06:47 Tracy Liberatore
Is there a specific type of case within the med? You said women. So like birth injuries or.

00:06:53 Alana Anzalone
Yes. So birth injuries but also maternal injuries which are often overlooked because for the most part, fortunately they do move on to to heal. And and you know, in our world their damages aren't that great. However, their damages are significant to them as a mom. Who actually had two complicated pregnancies? I understand how traumatizing pregnancy and birth and when it doesn't go right.

00:07:22 Alana Anzalone
It's it's awful. And it's. We black it out, and it's it's traumatic. Nobody understands that, really, unless you go through it. And so when I have the opportunity to to try to relay that to people who don't know what that truly is. You know, that's what I want to do. I want to help those people.

00:07:43 Tracy Liberatore
Is there a particular case that you might have that really stands out in your career? Either as something that you particularly liked doing or, or got a great result, or maybe that really taught you something that you've held on to over time?

00:07:58 Alana Anzalone
Well, my most recent in November, I felt so strongly for my client. And talk about connection. I mean, at the end of our trial, you know, it's like saying I love you to each other, right? But I've really connected with her. Sadly we lost.

00:08:16 Alana Anzalone
And the hardest part about that is that when you when a client loses a trial, it's a jury kind of telling them that what, what they went through doesn't matter. Yeah. And so how do I clean up the pieces on that. How do I provide the support on that outside of like okay sorry we lost, you know, have a good life.

00:08:38 Alana Anzalone
Right. Like that closure is is kind of something that always hung on to me. So, you know, my most recent this is in November, was the first maternal injury case that went all the way to a trial. And losing is obviously bittersweet, but it 100% does not deter me from taking those cases again because I it matters.

00:08:58 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah, no. For sure. So how do you balance the compassion with being the fierce and relentless fight for justice that your firm is known for?

00:09:06 Alana Anzalone
So I kind of look at that one. You know, so much of what we talked about as client focused. I try to approach and this is this is a over time progression of how I've gotten here, but I've really tried to be compassionate to everybody in the case. So defense counsel we got to take what they what they have with grains of salt.

00:09:27 Alana Anzalone
But also they are human. And it you know, I'm going to try to be respectful and compassionate and kind in the way that I speak with insurance companies. And then also, you know, to jurors, there's a juror in that room who may have trauma a similar to what we're talking about. Right. Compassion is is a tough word. But I try to keep my my kindness and respectful and compassion for the entire process in check, but also know that I'm serious and I'm good, and I will fight the fight that needs to be.

00:10:01 Alana Anzalone
You know, I, I was told once, I think it was by a defense attorney. I think somebody was asking about me on the other side. Yeah. And the response was, oh, she drinks the Kool-Aid. She is a plaintiff's attorney, but it's because she truly cares about what she's doing. And that's where, you know, I, I am extremely compassionate for the whole process and for the clients.

00:10:28 Alana Anzalone
I'm not going to roll over because of that. I am going to fight for, you know, what I truly believe in. But on the same, you know, on the same breath, if I if I think that something's difficult or, you know, I've come across doctors before, we have a process here called Candor. The clients get to communicate with the doctors in this Candor procedure.

00:10:47 Alana Anzalone
And it's actually really wonderful to see because there's it's confidential and doctor and patient or family members of patient get to have a real conversation. And and you see doctors crying. You see them so apologetic for the losses that they don't they may not have necessarily created. They don't believe they're negligent, but they understand that who I represent has experienced a loss in some way.

00:11:18 Alana Anzalone
And so the more and more I see these these procedures and processes and see doctors being humans, which they're not allowed to be in a deposition or at trial, has even opened my eyes to be compassionate to them. You know, if they did commit malpractice or if they were negligent, and they know that what we often forget is they have to put their head on the pillow as well, and they have to deal with that.

00:11:41 Alana Anzalone
And and to not have compassion for that is inhuman. But and you also have to be relentless and fight for the justice that your clients deserve.

00:11:54 Tracy Liberatore
No. Absolutely. So it's kind of like almost balancing we all have a job to do. We all have our perspective that we need to kind of come from the defensive line to, but at the end of the day, we're all human. Right. I had a doctor I worked with once that told me that, you know, if he did something wrong in surgery or whatever, sometimes the apology to the patient would be the thing.

00:12:15 Tracy Liberatore
And really just owning it would be the thing to help avoid a malpractice. So it's really interesting. So Candor. Is that something your firm does. Is that something your state has or what is that.

00:12:25 Alana Anzalone
Yeah. So it's it's called Candor. It was a legislative bill, that was passed by both insurance defense and doctors and plaintiff's bar here. We both advocated for it. And it's it's a process that sometimes will lead to some sort of compensation. Sometimes it's really just a meeting of closure, and other times it's not even accepted. People don't do it.

00:12:50 Alana Anzalone
It can get political, obviously. Like if the insurance companies are like, we're not paying this, I don't want to do it, and the doctors don't care, and they're just marching to the orders. It doesn't happen, but when you see it happen, it's a really cathartic process. You know, I've had clients, one in particular. Her husband died. That for the doctor?

00:13:11 Alana Anzalone
Failing to diagnose a pulmonary embolism in the meeting. You know, we had a doctor and we had a medical assistant there, and and they were just talking about how much they loved her husband and how good of a person he was. And the whole room was crying. I mean, doctors were crying. The defense attorney was crying. I was crying, our client was crying.

00:13:31 Alana Anzalone
And it's just it is it's really nice. And and so getting back to the the legislative bill, why they did it is I think it truly was to facilitate resolutions without having to file lawsuits. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But, it's definitely opening to to both sides.

00:13:50 Tracy Liberatore
It's certainly a nice thing to have as an option. So for our listeners who are, you know, trial lawyers and medical professionals, and because juries don't just respond to evidence, they respond to the authentic human narrative. How do you build that partnership with your clients? With the story is real and not just rehearsed.

00:14:07 Alana Anzalone
When it comes time to have like, real, okay, I really need to present them, right? Like, you know, I do it in multiple phases, but when it's time for trial, I'm or even mediation or their deposition, I am meeting them outside of the office. So we have coffee or go for a walk or at their house. I tried to remove the big ego powerful barrier of a law firm.

00:14:34 Alana Anzalone
I mean, I work out of my off my home, actually, because I don't feel comfortable in that environment. That's not. That's not who I am. Don't get me wrong. I love to have this powerful presentation. But I don't need to have that powerful presentation to my client. I like I want them to open up to me.

00:14:54 Alana Anzalone
I want them to tell me. And it's not even necessarily my client. It's their family. It's their friend. It's their their, you know, pastor. It's whoever it is that can share stories about these people to just jurors don't want to hear the medical evidence. It's it's boring. Right. Let's let's be honest. That's when we know they phase out.

00:15:15 Alana Anzalone
What they want to hear is who are we giving money to? Why do we need to give them money? What's their family like? What's their what's their interest? What do they do for the community? You don't learn that in an hour conversation with a client. You just don't. And I have to give a lot of credit to kind of that I open that that philosophy to Trial by Human.

00:15:37 Alana Anzalone
You know, I've read their books. I, you know, I know Nick and Courtney Raleigh and I've been to their, their events and and it truly is the find the human being that you're representing because that's what jurors know. They know what humanity is, what's reality. What's their what's their real life, you know?

00:15:55 Tracy Liberatore
Absolutely. And I know we'll talk about experts a little bit later. But just on the heels of that. Because you did mention so the experts are boring or can be boring. Is there anything that you do or or something you.

00:16:09 Tracy Liberatore
To try and help them to be more, you know, maybe tell a better story or. I mean, is there anything that you do with your experts specifically to try to help with that?

00:16:16 Alana Anzalone
Let me throw in an asterisk there. I think when I say boring, it's kind of like the client part of it. It's like, okay, take me through. When did you start going blah blah blah medicine. I find this is why I love med mal too, is that I just love medicine. And when I am talking to experts, I, I love being educated about it.

00:16:39 Alana Anzalone
So when I talk to experts from the first and we might be jumping ahead, but when I'm when I'm talking to them from the get go, number one, I am preparing myself for that phone call. So I'm making sure I know the records because otherwise it's a waste of my time in their time. You're paying for their time.

00:16:57 Alana Anzalone
You better get use out of it. And again, I check my ego at the door. I don't I don't know the medicine that they know. ChatGPT isn't telling me what they know. And as much as I can really try, I will, you know, educate myself before the phone call to have some information. I want them to explain it to me.

00:17:16 Alana Anzalone
I want them to shine, and I want them to feel empowered that, like, I don't know what you're talking about. So, 101, teach me. And and again, like, how do I hire experts? That's a really important piece. Like, if they can engage me, if I can understand what they're talking about, they get the job. If I am lost, I have, like, I've talked to, like, anesthesia, one at one area.

00:17:43 Alana Anzalone
For some reason, I just, like somebody can tell me it over and over and over, and I don't get it until finally I spoke with a, an anesthesia expert that finally I was like, oh, wow. You know what explained this? And that expert I will use, whether it's for consulting or, you know, to, to be on the stand or whatever.

00:18:04 Alana Anzalone
Because they know how to explain it, teach it to me, you know, and they're so smart. And this is what they do. And so it's hard to to break that down. And I'm such a. Even the way I operate, like I'm not I'm a very common sense big picture. The way I presented cases is big picture. I don't get in the weeds.

00:18:26 Alana Anzalone
And so, you know, when I'm having a medical expert or even, you know, an engineer or, or economist, again, economists, they can it's like, go do your thing. I don't even know.

00:18:38 Tracy Liberatore
Right.

00:18:40 Alana Anzalone
But yeah, if they can explain it to me, they can explain it to a jury. And that's that's what I'm looking for. And they have to like I want to. My dad always calls it a you want to be dancing with the stars with the expert like they want to. They need to lead. But you also need to.

00:18:55 Alana Anzalone
It's a dance, you know they are that. They are the star. But they can't. They can't out dance you. Right. So it has to be a a nice a connection, right? You have to connect with your experts too.

00:19:08 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah. Right, right. I love that analogy. Don't out dance your partner. Yeah, yeah. So let's talk about the hard part. I think we did touch on this a little bit. But what struggles have you faced in your career especially, you know, even in balancing motherhood and high stakes litigation?

00:19:24 Alana Anzalone
Before I even get into motherhood, I would say that I struggled with this profession before even started. When I was in college, I wasn't really sure that I wanted to go to law school. I think it was 2002, which was my junior year when I had to decide what I wanted to be when I grew up and I hadn't declared a major, I wasn't sure.

00:19:45 Alana Anzalone
My dad is a lawyer in Pennsylvania. He started a firm in northeastern Pennsylvania. He said, you know, Alana, you go to law school and you have a job and you have stability. And and at that time, jobs were tough to get, actually. And I was like, oh, that sounds good. I'll just go to law school. And my brother, who's 13 months older than me, he was we both were at Lafayette College at the same time.

00:20:09 Alana Anzalone
He knew he wanted to be a lawyer since he was like a child. And so it was kind of the path that I chose. It was a struggle. So even throughout law school, I questioned, you know, is this what I want to do? And then I struggled again. Once I started being a lawyer, I got right out of law school and I bought a house, and I started working immediately and in, in Wilkes-Barre.

00:20:34 Alana Anzalone
And, I just didn't know that that was for me. And I love and I loved the med mal. You know, I was working with my my dad had all the bad cases, the unique cases, the challenging, complicated cases. And as any, you know, brand new associate, I was handling low level auto. And that was fine, but it just didn't feel very, fulfilling.

00:20:58 Alana Anzalone
And my dad. Explained me during his speech at my wedding as a, salmon. Who who goes in the opposite direction upstream. I've always kind of been a grass is always greener person, which can be good and bad. And so, you know, I just was constantly like, oh, is there something different for me? Is this not you know.

00:21:21 Alana Anzalone
Is there a different area of law? Should I be focusing on certain things that I'm not currently? And that's when the idea of moving to Colorado came up, which was about two and a half years after I graduated from law school. And that was a really, really difficult decision because my goal was to move here and actually find a different career.

00:21:41 Alana Anzalone
Very difficult to leave my career, but also more so than anything to leave my, you know, big Italian family. I saw we saw each other every every Sunday at least, and if not more during the week. So that was really challenging. But I came to Colorado, I tried to do different things, and the law just kept pulling me back.

00:22:03 Alana Anzalone
And then, you know, I tried to work in a firm that was not a personal injury firm, and that just didn't work out. That was not for me. And then that was the time where I was like, oh, you know what? I actually am good at personal injury. I think I like it, you know, and I and I pitched the idea to my dad and Jamie and said, you know, let me, let me open up a satellite out here and see how it goes.

00:22:25 Alana Anzalone
So in my own firm and basically was like, give me crumbs. I joined Colorado Trial Lawyers Association, met some people and and built up a, a typical blueprint personal injury practice which was auto and slip and fall in some med mal. And it was enjoyable in the beginning because it was really fun to see, you know, my success grow and like, build it from scratch where nobody knew me, you know, growing up in Wilkes-Barre, in northeastern Pennsylvania.

00:22:51 Alana Anzalone
It's small and and people knew who I was, you know, so to come to a state where I didn't know a single person be able to grow a business was really rewarding until I started to feel that lack of fulfillment again. So at that point, I started struggling saying, is this really what I want to do? I'm not fulfilled.

00:23:13 Alana Anzalone
And that's when I kind of, 2 or 3 years ago, made the shift to saying, I'm going to do med mal. I love it. I love the medicine. Not a lot of people do it out here. The climate for med mal and the politics is not good, but I enjoy it. And so let's just take that risk.

00:23:27 Alana Anzalone
And so I would say, you know, taking being motherhood out of it. You know, those were just like the natural struggles of of being a, a lawyer, a trial lawyer. I didn't find being a mom to challenging with this profession until this year. You know, when I had my babies, I didn't I didn't have the guilt that a lot of women did.

00:23:51 Alana Anzalone
I have a really wonderful support system out here, and my husband is a wonderful co-parent, so I didn't feel that guilt of having to choose work when they were younger. And now they're seven and five. And that trial that I talked about in November. It was down in Colorado Springs, which is an hour and a half from where I lived.

00:24:08 Alana Anzalone
So I had to be down there. And it was it spanned three weeks. So every Sunday I had to say goodbye to my kids. And they were, you know, my daughter was like, can't you just be sick? Can't you pretend you're sick?

00:24:23 Alana Anzalone
Like, really challenging to.

00:24:25 Tracy Liberatore
Yes.

00:24:25 Alana Anzalone
You know, and I in the courtroom had no windows and I knew it was a challenging case. Jury selection was, you know, you know, you went to lose a case at jury selection. I knew it was a challenge. And there was many times during that trial that I was like, what am I doing? I'm away from my family.

00:24:45 Alana Anzalone
My husband's taking care of her kids. I miss them, like, is this? Am I in alignment into my values? And that was the first time that I really struggled with choosing work over family. And actually, that was the catalyst to trial.

00:25:06 Tracy Liberatore
That's where I was going to go next. So that's kind of the birth of this whole Trial Lawyer Mama. Yeah. Venture an idea. Yeah. So you want to tell us a little bit about that?

00:25:19 Alana Anzalone
Yeah, sure. So, Trial Lawyer Mama actually was my Instagram handle as soon as I had a child. So it wasn't related to this, this side project at all. So let's back up. I spent a lot of work with women in Colorado. I ran our Women Trial Lawyer Network, which is a committee of the Colorado Trial Lawyers Association, for eight years.

00:25:39 Alana Anzalone
And before I started it, it really there wasn't a lot of involvement. And I did a lot of work on it with many other co-chairs, but cared a lot about women in our profession. And it wasn't a powwow about hating men. That's not our objective. The objective is, is how do we prove ourselves? How do we use each other to be better lawyers, to stand out in this community and get respect, right.

00:26:08 Alana Anzalone
How do how do we present in a room where the room knows we aren't the paralegal, or we aren't the court reporter, or we we are the lawyer and we are the lead lawyer. And so my goal, what I've worked on with women in that is really like building our confidence through knowledge and education and support, to prove ourselves.

00:26:30 Alana Anzalone
So now that I have children, I just started noticing that, you know, women trial lawyers who are moms have a unique set of challenges that nobody else has. That's not to say that other professionals who are moms don't. So we're hired. We're high achieving individuals, right? And we have a lot on our plate. We carry the weight of everybody else.

00:26:54 Alana Anzalone
Getting back to the compassion and the empathy of our clients. Right. We take on we I don't know if ever it is. I certainly take on so much weight of other people's trauma. I live it, I want to connect with them. So to have you know that so you're carrying the weight of your client's trauma, you're then carrying the weight of being a mom, right?

00:27:18 Alana Anzalone
And your kids need you especially, you know, minor seven and five. They need me. Also, you know, my my husband's me. But I want to be there, and I want to be present, and I want to be available. And then I need me.

00:27:35 Tracy Liberatore
And I.

00:27:36 Alana Anzalone
Hear it's off screen. Needs me. Right? So, you know, I've I've done a lot of personal work on. Am I alone in this? Are there other women who feel this way? And the more I'm more I talk to people. And I've gone to, you know, a separate retreat that wasn't trial lawyer related. But I noticed the moms in that group had unique challenges that the other women didn't.

00:27:57 Alana Anzalone
And so this kind of evolved over time that, you know, I feel I'm very drawn to helping other women get to a place of confidence. And and so my goal with Trial Lawyer Mama is to enable women and provide this platform through accountability and coaching of like, how do we not just march through this? How do we not set autopilot, not a drive where we can build the life we want in intentional ways in all four of those jobs?

00:28:29 Alana Anzalone
Right. And I say for jobs is our real job or parenting job, our spouse or partner job, and then taking care of ourselves.

00:28:38 Tracy Liberatore
Absolutely.

00:28:39 Alana Anzalone
And I don't think I think a lot of women just don't, especially in our career. We are high achieving and we do have egos and we don't ask them for help. And and that lends itself to burnout. It lends itself to comparison. Unhealthy, you know, just kind of unhealthy mindsets where we just don't allow ourselves to stop. Like, what are we doing?

00:29:04 Alana Anzalone
Is this how you want to live your life? Because we only have one and tomorrow is not guaranteed.

00:29:09 Tracy Liberatore
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And we see a lot of that with the work that you do. I'm sure with the clients, when a medical thing can happen on a dime and it's just, you know, changes everything. Yeah. In a heartbeat. Yeah. So and so you had mentioned, you know, kind of carrying a lot of this stuff from your clients.

00:29:28 Tracy Liberatore
So for our audience, many of whom maybe in the thick of child prep and, you know, also trying to manage a real life, what systems or mindset shifts or, you know, like, how do you protect your energy from, you know, the long term carrying of a lot of the stuff, you know, and and keeping your space clear so that you can continue to manage life and manage your clients and not, you know, kind of carry all this heavy weight with you forever.

00:29:52 Alana Anzalone
It's a learned experience, right? Like, the system is what I've learned. What systems do I use? I meditate, I wake up before my kids do, I work out. I try to eat healthy. Time management, I mean, these are all, like, buzzwords, but it's like, how do you apply them? Right. We all know we need those things.

00:30:15 Alana Anzalone
But how do we do it? And so also, you know, I get outside, I breathe a lot. I sit at my desk all day, and sometimes I'll just like I'm looking at a beautiful sunny day out my window. Get up. Go get some fresh air. Reset. Come back. But the system is truly an intentional present system. And it's not what I'm.

00:30:39 Alana Anzalone
What. I've shifted and it's been over. It's been a work in progress. I mean, this is has not come naturally to me. I, I have done a lot of work on myself. So when I say it's a lived experience, it is over the past several years, what I've learned most and what's most important, is that I'm operating in alignment with my own personal values and my standards.

00:30:58 Alana Anzalone
Our industry forces external factors in our face. You know, if you want to learn, you're going to see all these if you want to be a better lawyer. You're surrounding yourself with good lawyers, right? You're learning from people. You're talking on listservs. You're talking to colleagues. But with that comes external verdicts that are bigger than yours, settlements that.

00:31:21 Alana Anzalone
Why didn't you get them? But they did. Firms that are growing bigger than yours or different than yours. So there's all these external, external factors that kind of can fog your real purpose, right. And so when you when you get bogged down with those, it leads to resentment. Unnatural I mean, not not intentional resentment. It just does. Because you want those things too.

00:31:50 Alana Anzalone
Because we're all high achievers. This is what we're doing. And it also lends itself to self-doubt or, you know, deprecation, or not being worthy or valuable. And so I got I found myself really wrapped up in that. I was I was really into the like going to many calls. But again, it was a comparison. So like I got a good million dollar verdict.

00:32:18 Alana Anzalone
Somebody else got an $8 million verdict, right? Or someone got eight figure or now you're hearing massive verdicts and it's like, oh, I thought I was good.

00:32:29 Alana Anzalone
So once I started stepping back from that, taking a breath and like looking internally, you know, what do I how do I want to, you know, what's my North Star? How do I want to operate in my life? And it may not look like somebody else that did it a different way. Right. And so what I impose in my life as a systems of intentional, intentional acts, working in the day to day system instead of towards the goal, because we all have the goal is there.

00:32:57 Alana Anzalone
It is a moving target, but it's there. So the day to day and the present is is what's most important. And honestly, it's it's really changed my mindset and like outlook of my job. And how do I handle all of it. Just become more enjoyable to be honest.

00:33:13 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah. So if somebody were, looking to try to get involved or whatever, what type of a client, I guess, or what type of a person or what type of an issue would somebody have for, to get involved with the Trial Lawyer Mama side of things?

00:33:27 Alana Anzalone
And this is not to be like exclusive, but it's because, again, it was created on a learned experience. So it is a mom who's a trial lawyer. And that's that's basically it. And those who are finding themselves stuck, those who are just on autopilot. And when somebody asked, someone asked me like, how do you do it all? Why just do we just march, do it?

00:33:52 Alana Anzalone
We just we get stuff done because we are achievers, but we get lost in the process. So anyone who feels that they are missing out or trying to reach these external factors and and losing out on the present, or making mistakes or missing something just so focused on an end result instead of the the present. How do we how do we act intentionally?

00:34:16 Alana Anzalone
You know, that's for you. Like, I think the, the challenge that we all have is, is acknowledging that something's not working. Right. There is certainly going to be, if it hasn't already happened to a trial or a mom, is you're going to have to pick work over a kid at one point. And that hurts. And so, again, like I said, as the as the kids have gotten older, this is resonated with me a little bit more.

00:34:45 Alana Anzalone
And so it might be more of the, the clientele who is starting to feel these, these things because their kids are asking moms for more. But like for example, field trips, my son started saying, mom, why don't you join the field trips? And my natural reaction is, well, honey, because I have to work. Yeah, I have a job.

00:35:08 Alana Anzalone
I have a lot of people demanding things of me. I'm really busy and I'm sorry. Like, other moms can do it. And. And I'll see you when I get home. That was the case. And then I felt really bad about it, and I was like, well, can I actually do this? Like, how do I do this? Because I feel bad.

00:35:25 Alana Anzalone
I, he is getting older and older and, and I'm missing out on that. And people say that and you just don't really.

00:35:31 Tracy Liberatore
Think that you don't get it until it happens.

00:35:33 Alana Anzalone
Yeah.

00:35:34 Tracy Liberatore
Can't get your time.

00:35:35 Alana Anzalone
Exactly. So it's like, all right, well, let me look at his field trips. There's there's some that's an hour long like and they're in advance. So yes, I can block out my calendar and I can go on this field trip and then I will go back to work. So I've really started to like I keep using the word, but I keep intentionally looking at my calendar and my actual needs.

00:35:58 Alana Anzalone
Like, do I actually need to be at my desk on that day of that, of that field trip? And if the answer is no, then that's my guiding light, right? Women who feel stuck or or in doubt or guilty or really like, I think I'm doing okay, but I know I can do better because again, we are all high achievers.

00:36:22 Alana Anzalone
So yeah. So what can we do to be better? I mean, that's the whole goal is for us to be better. And and I also want to emphasize that just because we have children doesn't mean that we aren't as good or better than anyone else in that courtroom. You know, we have a we have a unique set of superpowers that other people in that courtroom don't.

00:36:46 Alana Anzalone
And and if we can just shift the focus where it's, it's not a a bogged down. I'm too busy. I'm overwhelmed to I get to do this and I'm really good at it. So how do I fix everything else? You know, that's what we can work on. And again, the whole point, like as I did with women, is to build our credibility, right?

00:37:10 Alana Anzalone
Build the credibility to show that you can do it all in a way that is not harmful to you. Because. Because we are the most important.

00:37:19 Tracy Liberatore
So what I'm actually hearing you say, I just wanted to reflect back a woman who is trying to find herself and step into her power again through all the chaos that life has brought along.

00:37:29 Alana Anzalone
Yeah. So if you've ever had this thought of, oh, I just don't want to do this anymore, I know we've had it. Don't say you haven't.

00:37:38 Tracy Liberatore
I know.

00:37:41 Alana Anzalone
I want to go and be a yoga teacher. I want to be all those things. All of those things have crossed my mind. You don't have to leave your career to be good at both. You chose both of those things. So let's figure out how to be good at both of those things where you're not losing yourself in it.

00:37:59 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I wanted to just sort of, looking at younger trial lawyers or younger. You know, women, men and the younger group coming up. Any advice that you have for for them as they're starting their career? You know what? Maybe they might underestimate about trial work or habits that, you know, separate great trial lawyers from good ones.

00:38:22 Tracy Liberatore
And, and and again, you know, we talk a lot about credibility. So, you know, how about building some of this stuff early on or any, any really, tips or things you've learned along the way that you want to pass on to the next up and coming generation.

00:38:34 Alana Anzalone
So the number one thing that when I was younger that I learned mostly in Colorado, actually, is because Colorado laws and Pennsylvania laws are completely different. I mean, the concepts are the same, but there's a lot of of different intricacies between the two is ask questions. Do not let your ego get in the way of learning. You don't have to do it yourself.

00:38:58 Alana Anzalone
There is somebody out there who did what you're struggling with and went through it, and will take the time to tell you about it. And and I tell this I've created this kind of authentic, natural mentorship with women like, call me. You're not gonna bother me. I'm sure that what I, what you're going through or the question that you have or the problem you're dealing with that you're you don't want to go ask your partner or your boss because you're supposed to know it.

00:39:23 Alana Anzalone
Call me. Find that person out there that make friends with them that you don't feel bad bothering them because it's actually not a bother. I'm. I'm happy to share anything. No, there's there's. I always make this comparison of when we're in law school, there's people in law school who don't want to share their notes. You didn't go to class.

00:39:42 Alana Anzalone
I'm not going to share my notes with you. Right?

00:39:44 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah, right.

00:39:45 Alana Anzalone
I'm not that person. I share the notes like you're only doing a, you know, a disservice to yourself if you need my notes. But why do I need to, you know, do a disservice to you? You want my notes? You want my help? I just I give it freely. And so my my advice is ask for help.

00:40:04 Alana Anzalone
There's there's a form out there. There's an answer out there. So ask for help. And then also, it's the other thing I would say is what I've already talked about is the sooner you can identify that you are working towards external factors, incentive, internal, the sooner you will create a more successful career because the external factors, they may be motivating in some way, but they are also very harmful.

00:40:32 Tracy Liberatore
And I think what you said to it, it goes back to that whole competition and comparison piece. Again, you know why your analogy is great, the one that won't share their notes. And I can only think that it has to do with, you know, again, that competition on some level. Right, right. So I just wanted to touch again here a little bit.

00:40:51 Tracy Liberatore
I know we talked about medical experts. But really just to kind of give our listeners a little bit of insight into the trial lawyers brain, because we do get a lot of new people that are not so sure, can I do this work as an expert? And so, you know, when you're hiring somebody, what is it specifically that you're looking for?

00:41:11 Tracy Liberatore
And I know we talked a little bit about the personality, but is there a specific credential. Do they have to have you know, I guess what's a must have when you're talking to somebody?

00:41:20 Alana Anzalone
Well, obviously the must is the credential for the area that we're we need. That's an obvious. But I always talk about egos. I think the ability to drop an ego, to let a lawyer help you understand the legal part of what you need to be doing, like, there's no doubt that practice you can practice, you might know the, the, academic part of it, but when it comes to the legal part, you need us to help you and you need to be open to being okay with that.

00:41:49 Alana Anzalone
So if you don't understand what stand the standard of care testimony, like you know what the standard of care is, that's we're not telling you that. But when you can't, like, identify how to say it right. If you in a legal sense, like let help us help you. When it comes to like experience testifying, I kind of go both ways on that.

00:42:13 Alana Anzalone
Obviously experience is helpful because you don't have to do that piece I just talked about. They know what the they know the game. Right. But also knowing the game is dangerous, because it opens the door to to credibility and bias and all of that. So, I know that well, my understanding is that if you are a expert who tends to be hired by plaintiff's defense usually isn't going to ask you to to do it, and vice versa.

00:42:41 Alana Anzalone
But I think that to the extent an expert can work for both sides, it builds a lot of credibility. And I am okay with that.

00:42:48 Tracy Liberatore
In working with experts behind the scene. Have been training for my little girl for ten years, and it's just you're exactly right. With their reports, because I every report that comes through, I read it and we go back and forth with them, and and that causation piece is just trying to get that information out of their head and, like, onto the paper.

00:43:07 Tracy Liberatore
I always call it the I call it the brain flip just because like I was a PA and I know going through law school trying to figure out how to write legally, it was a struggle because I had to go from, well, just wanting the answer and how to fix it to everything that happened in my brain to get there right.

00:43:25 Tracy Liberatore
Being important so that absolutely, that is, the biggest struggle I see for them as well. So for the physician listening who may want to become an expert, do you have any specific advice that you'd give them how to show up in a way that truly helps the jury?

00:43:40 Alana Anzalone
I mean, I think just be authentic and engaging, you know, educate the jury because, again, they don't know what you're talking about. Be as common sense as possible. Don't sound overly intelligent, that nobody understands what you're talking about. You really got to be able to explain it and dumb it down. That and that's for me because honestly, like, if I can't understand what you're talking about, jurors can't either.

00:44:07 Alana Anzalone
So if you have a lawyer saying, like, I need you to explain this better, it's it's true. You gotta you gotta do that. And I think, you know, I'm going to say this and it may not be a well received, but for those who want to be experts, please don't use it as a way to get rich because we are seeing and also like make it make sense as to as to the time that you actually spent.

00:44:37 Alana Anzalone
Because, you know, first of all, I hate I hate controversy, but when I see an experts invoice of how long it may have taken to review a record or use some sort of real timer, because if I'm I'm wondering that, did that really take that much time to review that somebody else is to and that is an immediate discredit to your to your anything you say you you can be the best medical expert ever.

00:45:08 Alana Anzalone
But if you lose credibility in an area in that way, they won't listen to you.

00:45:13 Tracy Liberatore
So absolutely, I, I struggle with the same thing when our experts submit their invoices. And that's one of the actual things that I manage for a client. I've had experts try to submit like ten and 15 hours of research on a case, and I don't allow more than 2 or 3 at the tops without, you know, approval.

00:45:32 Tracy Liberatore
If there's a certain thing the attorney wants them to research, that's different. But, I'll of the gate. I don't allow for a learning curve because it's just such an inflated. You're 100% right. The invoice is just crazy. And I just tell them, you can't bill for this. We're not even submitting these hours. It's just crazy. You can't make all of your money on one case, and nor should you try.

00:45:50 Tracy Liberatore
It's about building a relationship. You want repeat work, right? Yeah. Absolutely.

00:45:55 Alana Anzalone
Yeah, it's a little it can be a barrier for them, to be honest. You might as well get the work. Get more of the work, but at a reasonable rate, you know?

00:46:06 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah, we, we've been seeing a lot of, like, eight and $900 an hour coming through, to which I think is a little crazy. I just won't work with those numbers either. But that's just me.

00:46:18 Alana Anzalone
Yeah, well, I appreciate that. That's like. It's so hard to say. Like, you can't charge what you want, to charge what you believe you're worth. But I think the misconception in the entire medical field and us is that in their perception of personal injury lawyers is like, we're just raking in the cash.

00:46:38 Tracy Liberatore
You know, I.

00:46:38 Alana Anzalone
Was coming out of our pocket and oftentimes we're paying for it at the end of the day out of our pocket because, you know, our clients going to be like, that's absolutely an absurd cost. And so the lawyers take the hit. I mean, and and it just is like a icky place to be.

00:46:58 Tracy Liberatore
It is. And not every case is $1 million case. And that's the other part they don't understand. Like you have to look at the case value. You have to look at a lot of different factors. And then, you know, it's absolutely yeah. That that is an issue that we try to help manage as well. Yeah.

00:47:12 Alana Anzalone
So I love talking to medical doctors. I love learning about it. Even if I don't even take a cake, like, I want them to tell me that I don't have a case if it's the truth. And I love learning. Why? So I very much value those conversations.

00:47:28 Tracy Liberatore
So that's actually a really another good point. That especially early on, they, they're always trying to figure out if they could find something for the case. That's not always what attorneys after their they want to know if there's a case or not. And and like you said why. So that's a great point to.

00:47:44 Alana Anzalone
The thing I'll say about doctors getting back to the Trial Lawyer Mama. I've thought about this, a lot. And when I think of like, you know, people are like, would you open this to other professions? And to be honest, the only other profession that comes to mind is either a physician or a therapist, because I know that they also carry the weight of heavy burden.

00:48:09 Alana Anzalone
Right. It's it's a heavy emotional burden as opposed to just like billing hours. Right. Like there's a difference between the who we're servicing. So doctors there's and I talk a lot about this as a secondary trauma. You know, we have so much secondary trauma. We see horrible things that can happen. And then we're expected to think that we can just play with our kids and and not have any of that over, you know, unreasonable, fears take over in our parenting.

00:48:43 Alana Anzalone
So, you know, I know that doctors have that kind of same complexity of how their lives have to shift, you know, between carrying the burden of a patient and what happens to them during their treatment, good or bad. And then shifting gears, being able to just switch it, at 5:00 or whatever that time is to then be a mom.

00:49:04 Tracy Liberatore
Try to just turn it off and go home. Right, right. Yeah. Well, a lot of this has been an outstanding session. I really appreciate everything that you've shared with us here today. Any last bits of information, anything that you feel like has not been said that you want to share before we get your contact information?

00:49:22 Alana Anzalone
Two things for the the lawyers out there, just, you know, male, female, you know, whoever with kids, no kids in the world of so much information don't get lost in being somebody else. Don't get lost in the, teachings, or you have to follow this path to be a phenomenal lawyer. You're in this field because you were drawn to it, and use your own authenticity to represent your clients in whatever way works for you.

00:49:58 Alana Anzalone
So I've learned that be authentic. Don't try to don't try to be somebody else that wrote a book. You can use their information and you can adapt it, but don't try to be them. So I would say that to everybody. And then for the parents out there, somebody said this to me and I want to pass this on, is that when that time has come in your life that you're you're like laying on your desk, that or whatever, there's never going to be the thought that I regret spending time with my kids instead of working.

00:50:31 Alana Anzalone
You will absolutely regret choosing work over an important part with your kids, an important event with your kids. It's easy to be, blurred in that decision making at the time, but if you make the decision based on what do you think you'd look at and how do you feel about it in the future? You know that every, every day, if you chose these children to be, you know, if you if you brought this child into this world, you know that you would choose your child over work any day.

00:51:01 Alana Anzalone
And so just remember that when tough, tough choices are in front of you.

00:51:05 Tracy Liberatore
Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Great advice.

00:51:09 Alana Anzalone
Yeah.

00:51:10 Tracy Liberatore
So on the heels of that, tell people how we could get in touch with you.

00:51:14 Alana Anzalone
So even though I'm in Colorado I still my main offices in Pennsylvania. So you can contact, what was originally Anzalone offices. We just changed a couple of years ago to Angelo and and Doyle. So our phone number there is (877) 256-6933. But if you want to get in touch with me directly, I'm really good with email. Sadly, not a boundary that I've stuck with.

00:51:42 Alana Anzalone
It's. You can email me at Alana. So it's Alana at a l o hyphen co.com.

00:51:52 Tracy Liberatore
All right. Thank you again, Alana. I am sure our listeners will find this conversation enthralling. And, you know, thank you for being on the show.

00:52:00 Alana Anzalone
I hope so, yeah, it was nice. Nice to talk with you.

00:52:03 Tracy Liberatore
All right, so this brings us to an end of another episode and we will see you on the next one.

00:52:09 Tracy Liberatore
If today's episode.

00:52:10 Tracy Liberatore
Changed how you'll read your next medical record, consider sharing it with a colleague and follow the show so you don't miss future conversations with trial attorneys. Shaping the space Statutes and Stethoscopes is brought to you by Med Legal Pro, where I match attorneys with rigorously vetted medical experts and turn complex records into court ready work product. If you're sitting on a case where the medical evidence isn't adding up, consider submitting it for a review.

00:52:36 Tracy Liberatore
I'm Tracy Liberatore and I'll see you in the next episode.